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Forum » Russian Civil war / Гражданская война в России » Thread: Reds Mongols and Reds in Mongolia / Красные + монголы -- Page 1  Jump To: 


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Ranjit Kothar
New User




From: Newport Pagnell
Messages: 19

 Reds Mongols and Reds in Mongolia / Красные + монголы
Sent: 28-03-2012 15:28
 
Hello,
just looking at the topics covered and i'm surprised that there's no mention of Mongolia or the various Mongolian armies .
My knowledge of Mongolia is rather limited, but i am aware of the following.

1911- Chinese revolution ,Mongolia declares independence.

1912- fighting breaks out between the Mongols and Chinese, the Mongolians form an army with Russian help and instructors.

1915- Mongolia granted internal autonomy under the leadership of the senior Buddhist lama priest.

1917 - After Russian revolution starts fighting starts up again in Mongolia. I'm not too sure if this referes to the Mongolian army or red/ communist Mongolian partisans or if it was small scale battles or skirmishes or larger battles etc.

1919 -The Chinese cancell the autonomy agreement and send in a large military force. The Mongol army is disbanded.Again i am unaware if the Mongolian army resisted the forced disarmament .

I assume that during this period the Mongolian communist partisans were still active against the Chinese.

1920-21 - White Russian general Baron von Ungern- Sternberg invades Mongolia , aided by many Mongolians , restors Mongolian independence and after a number of battles captures the capital Urga (Ulaan Baator). Reign of terror for 3 days, the Baron looses support or lots of Mongolians.
Mongolian parisans now fighting Ungern- Sterbergs forces.

Chinese send a warlord to Mongolia who bribes/ pays Baron Ungern- Sternberg to invade Russia. The Baron sees himself as the Russian Emperor who will lead a "crusade" against the Bolsheviks.

1920-21 - Ungern- Sternberg forces cross into Russia, Red Russians and Mongolians of the Peoples Revolutionary Army defeat the Barons forces after various battles.

The Baron is handed over to trhe Bolsheviks, tried and executed.

I'm not too sure of the sizes of the various Mongolian armies, i would assume they were quite small due tio Mongolias small population.

I think the Ungern- Sternberg army had cossacks , white Russian officers, Mongols , ex Austrian -Hungarian prisoners of war , and even some Tibetans.

As for uniforms i would guess a mixture of traditional Mongolian and Russian, white and red.

Ranjit.

Николай
Registered User




From: Воронеж
Messages: 1555

 Reds Mongols and Reds in Mongolia / Красные + монголы
Sent: 23-08-2012 00:16
 


Д.Сухэ-Батор (четвертый справа) и Н.А.Каландарашвили (третий слева)



Красные партизаны Ван-хурэ с советскими инструкторами. 1921 г. (Булган хотын музей)



Командный состав Экспедиционного корпуса, действовавшего против Азиатской дивизии. Троицкосавск, август 1921 г. (ГМСИР, колл.: фото №4400/9)



Командный состав 307-го полка, отличившегося при разгроме Р.Ф.Унгерна под Троицкосавском, 1921 г. (ГМСИР, колл.: фото №4400/11)



Отряд красных идет на войну с Унгерном (ГМСИР, колл.: фото №4400/2)



Я.Н.Каратаев, командир Забайкальской кавалерийской дивизии, воевавшей против Р.Ф.Унгерна, и его помощник М.М.Якимов, 1921 г. ГМСИР, колл.: фото.



Группа командиров, отличившихся при разгроме Р.Ф.Унгерна, 1921. ГМСИР, колл.: фото, №4400/10



Отряд красных партизан под командой Н.Ларионова в период борьбы с бароном Унгерном. ГМСИР, колл.: фото, №4400/10

Николай
Registered User




From: Воронеж
Messages: 1555

 Reds Mongols and Reds in Mongolia / Красные + монголы
Sent: 08-11-2012 03:21
 
Современник, рассказывая о работе большевиков в Монголии 1921 г., упомянул:

Формировалась революционная монгольская армия, на красных знаменах которой было изображение священного монгольского знака "Суастик" - креста с загнутыми в одну сторону концами.

Носков К. Авантюра, или Черный для русских белых в Монголии 1921 г. Харбин, 1930. С.31

В принципе, все логично - желтый монгольский значок со свастикой был сменен на красный, только и всего.

Cuprum
Message Maniac


From: Барнаул
Messages: 829

 Reds Mongols and Reds in Mongolia / Красные + монголы
Sent: 14-10-2020 09:48
 
...среди харачинов под красным знаменем с черной свастикой сражался продавшийся "гаминам" князь Фушенга (поднявший в конце августа 1919 года бунт в Азиатской конной дивизии, но разгромленный и убитый вместе со своими сообщниками).

proza.ru/2010/03/13/883

Харачины - название одного из племен южных монголов.

Cuprum
Message Maniac


From: Барнаул
Messages: 829

 Reds Mongols and Reds in Mongolia / Красные + монголы
Sent: 14-10-2020 22:41
 
Есть пара плохих фото стендов с выставки, посвященной монгольской армии. Но хоть какая-то информация)))
Униформа монгольской Красной армии 1921 - 1924 гг.







Я попробовал набрать текст и перевести его через Гугл-переводчик. Текст неполный, поэтому только обрывки, но кое о чем можно сделать предположения.

1921 г.

Министерство обороны...
военный генерал Д. Сух...
16 ноября...
Командуйте «нагрудным знаком военного пресса»...
объявить "д....
по должности....
сделать опознавательный знак...
Согласно заказу, отличительный знак - «желтый...
Это треугольный знак длиной 5 дюймов с каждой стороны....
Гвоздь повторяет красный цвет офиса, который закрывается в нижней половине....
Ромб - это «скала»...
был прибит к полу....
Для штабных солдат желтый с красными полосами ...
Существует знак. Его ширина составляет 1 дюйм, а средний ...
Сделана свастика. Внизу символа ромба ...
внимательно.
"До сих пор у большинства боссов были бирки на рукавах....
Вы можете набрать столько цифр, сколько хотите...
Дело в том, что это «а» это не украшение...
Статья "для" тех, кто может незаконно прибить р...
приказал.

Мои предположения:
Приказ какого-то генерала из Министерства Обороны от 16 ноября.
Командиры, имеющие (на настоящий момент) нагрудный знак… должны иметь отличительный нарукавный знак. Знак треугольный желтый, сторона треугольника имеет размер 5 дюймов.
Знак различия ромб находится в нижней части опознавательного знака.
Для штабных нижних чинов вместо ромбов используются красные полоски.
На знаке изображена свастика с длиной стороны 1 дюйм.
Также приказ запрещает имеющуюся практику ношения на рукавах произвольного количества каких-то «бирок и сулит наказание за их незаконное ношение.

Cuprum
Message Maniac


From: Барнаул
Messages: 829

 Reds Mongols and Reds in Mongolia / Красные + монголы
Sent: 21-10-2020 15:33
 
Некоторые соображения по теме внешнего вида могольской народной армии в 1921-24 гг.:

Cкорее всего, монголы переняли советскую систему знаков различия. Только размещена она была несколько иначе - на желтом треугольнике, нашитом на правый рукав.
Носились ли подобные знаки различия в реальности, пока сказать невозможно - у нас нет никаких подтверждений этому. Вполне возможно, что эти знаки различия оставались только на бумаге.

Я считаю, что у монголов не имелось утвержденной военной униформы. Они носили либо свою традиционную народную одежду, либо полученные от Красной армии предметы одежды. У них было довольно много буденовок - видимо причина в том, что они очень похожи по внешнему виду на традиционный монгольский головной убор. Командиры монгольских частей, вполне возможно, стремились подражать командирам Красной армии и могли использовать военный костюм "русского" образца. Это мы можем увидеть на фотографиях Сухе-Батора, который использует как русский, так и монгольский вариант костюма.

Предположу, что синие или красные звезды у монголов на буденовках - скорее всего зависело от того, элемент пехотной или кавалерийской советской экипировки они получили.

Ввиду крайней скудости информации придется пользоваться пока и различными "суррогатами", вроде театрального и прочего артистического реквизита, картинами и рисунками из различных источников и т.п.



Какая-то агитка. Видим двух "повстанцев" с пиками и пехотинца. "Копейщики" явно в монгольском гражданском костюме. Солдат в русской защитной гимнастерке. У всех одинаковые головные уборы. Никаких знаков различия.





Фото реконструкции монгольского бойца с юбилейной выставки в монгольском музее.



Те же предметы в витрине музея.




Сухе-Батор в на фото и в изображениях.




Провозглашение монгольской народной республики Сухе-Батором.
У меня ощущение, что это раскрашенное фото, но ручаться не могу. Обращает на себя обилие синих буденовок и разноцветие знамен.




Вступление Народной армии в Улан-Батор.




Какая-то театральная постановка на тему. Обращает на себя внимание знак на правом рукаве одного из актеров. Вдруг художнику по костюмам было известно что-то, чего не знаем мы?


И музыкальный номер в тему:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Q_WQkJb3w

"Реконструкция" бойцов Народной армии в клипе тоже прямо говорит о том, что из элементов униформы использовались, в основном, только буденовки.

Николай
Registered User




From: Воронеж
Messages: 1555

 Reds Mongols and Reds in Mongolia / Красные + монголы
Sent: 23-10-2020 00:49
 
Не знаю ничего о предмете, но достоверно известно, что даже в позднесоветское время монголы одевались тупо в советскую униформу, в большинстве явно даже не меняя знаки различия. Это видно на фотографиях 1980-90-х. Собственно, эта практика прекратилась совсем недавно, лет этак десять назад. На фото 1930-х монголы тоже практически ничем от советских не отличаются. Так что да, скорее всего, Михаил абсолютно прав.

Cuprum
Message Maniac


From: Барнаул
Messages: 829

 Reds Mongols and Reds in Mongolia / Красные + монголы
Sent: 27-10-2020 19:02
 
"Military Illustrated". №72, May 1994



The Last Barbarian
Mongolian Civil War, 1920-21

With an army of 6000 Mongol and Russian warriors, Baron Ungern-Sternberg set about recreating the Mongol empire as part of his dream to free Asia from the Bolsheviks. L.F. WILDMAN tells the bizarre story of this little known episode.
Central Asia in 1920 was a wide open land. The Russian and Chinese Empires had collapsed and civil war raged across the whole of Eurasia. Red and White Russians, Nationalist Chinese, and tribal robber bands warred for supremacy. Into this murderous chaos rode Baron Ungern-Sternberg.



Claiming descent from a family of Baltic pirates, Ungern-Sternberg was a man in search of a kingdom. Born in 1887, his first major military service was to obtain a commission in a Cossack cavalry regiment. In the First World War, he fought in the Tsar’s army against the Germans and displayed such courage and leadership that he emerged from the combat as a Major-General decorated with the Cross of St. George, but his fellow officers already knew he had a black side to his personality. Whenever he began to drink, officers chose that time to retire. Always armed with a gun, he was quick to challenge other soldiers to a duel and a number of deaths at his hands were recorded. Only his boldness in battle protected him from being cashiered. With the end of the Imperial Russian Army, Ungern-Sternberg fought alongside the White Russians against the Bolsheviks, but as the Reds succeeded, he found himself pushed further east to a land that had always fascinated him ever since he had been posted there as a young officer. In Mongolia, at the heart of the political chaos between Russia and China, the Baron saw an opportunity. He was, after all, as he confided to his comrades, the reincarnation of Genghis Khan.

With an army of four thousand White Russian troops and two thousand Mongol bandits picked up along the way, Ungern-Sternberg conceived a plan of conquest and what he saw as liberation. Having converted to Buddhism, he would lead an attack on the Mongolian capital of Urga (now Ulan Bator), throw out the Chinese, restore the Living Buddha Bogdo Khan, and proclaim a Greater Mongolia. From there, he would then assemble a mighty Mongol Army and attack China. With the Chinese Empire reestablished, the baron would turn his attention to Europe where he would ‘wipe out the revolution mongers among the white races’. That Ungern-Sternberg was actually mad with a sadistic taste for violence did not matter to his followers. They were dispossessed men in a land without borders and without authority and they would follow a victorious warlord anywhere. Imposing a rule of fear over his warriors in which any wounded or ill members were executed, Ungern-Sternberg looked for financial backing for his venture to the Japanese. Terrified of the Red wave sweeping through Russia and disappointed by the performance of the Whites, the Japanese were only too willing to fund a man who they thought was strong enough to turn Mongolia into a Japanese protectorate. Several Japanese advisers joined his army along with a Mongolian princess — the Baron’s new bride — several Buddhist soothsayers, and seventy Tibetan armoured warriors donated by the Dalai Lama.



With this bizarre entourage, Ungern- Sternberg advanced into Mongolia in October 1920. Dmitri Alioshin, a former White Russian, who travelled with the Baron describes him as wearing a cherry-red Chinese jacket and blue Imperial Russian Army breeches and surrounded by ‘barbaric luxury and glory’. Before him ran stories of his barbaric behaviour. Alioshin records: ‘They related, for example, how the village of Buluktai was burned with the inhabitants locked in their huts; how Captain Vishnevsky was whipped to death; how the baron had strangled Colonels Lihachev and Yahontov; how his adjutant had killed Korotkov just to get his young and pretty wife; how Dr. Engelgard-Esersky was burned alive at the stake.’ When one of his Russian officers deserted with a troop of men, Ungern- Sternberg sent a party of Chahar Mongols after them. The Mongol tribesmen returned with a sack of ears cut off the now dead Russians and Ungern-Sternberg threw the officer’s wife to the Chahars as a reward.
With such a reputation, the Chinese at Urga dug in and armed themselves. On October 26th, having consulted with his soothsayers, Baron Ungern-Sternberg led his first attack on the Mongolian capital. Forbath describes the scene from inside the city:
‘I was awakened by the noise of shooting, mingled with the frightened crying of children... I dressed in a hurry, keeping well away from the window, through which bullet after bullet was whizzing into the room, peppering the opposite wall in an irregular pattern. This went on for about half an hour, after which the firing ceased and the din of explosions was replaced by the noise of tramping feet, hooting motor-cars and confused cries... Suddenly there came a high- pitched hiss, immediately followed by a terrific explosion, and a cloud of dust rose in front of the house... we guessed that Baron Ungern-Sternberg was bombarding the Chinese barracks close by, and we were confirmed in this belief as grenade after grenade exploded in front of the house.’
Despite their initial onslaught, Ungern- Sternberg’s warriors were outnumbered by the Chinese and well dug-in machine gun crews caught them in cross-fire, forcing them back to nearby hills. The Baron waited five days, then attacked but was again beaten back. With the now severe Mongolian winter descending, Ungern-Sternberg retreated east and then south, placing himself across the road from Urga to Peking. Living by looting and having gained time to strengthen his army, the Baron felt secure in that while he stayed where he was the Chinese in Urga received no supplies and no reinforcements. Curiously, the Chinese defenders did not seem to even consider the fact that the robber army might launch another attack on them. On the night of January 31st, Ungern- Sternberg instructed his men to assault Urga.



In order to give the impression of a far greater army than he had, the Baron sent some of his men into the hills around the city to light fires so it seemed as though the Chinese were surrounded. According to Alioshin, there were only one thousand seven hundred bandits against twelve thousand Chinese. The plan was to send the main strength of the Baron’s army against the Chinese barracks with another attack from the south, while 250 Russians and 60 Tibetans were to scale the palace of the Bogdo Ul and free the Living Buddha. In the event, very high winds delayed the arrival of the ox-drawn artillery and it was dawn by the time the main attack began by which time the Chinese were able to shell and machine gun the attacking Mongols and Russians with the Mongol units proving the least resistant to sustained gunfire. The Russians and Tibetans successfully freed the Living Buddha and obtained a store of Chinese ammunition and machine guns at the palace which they rushed to the main battle front.
Forbath gives an alternative account of the battle in which the assault happened in several stages with the Baron’s troops first assaulting the Living Buddha’s palace and then letting several days pass which enabled the Chinese to quickly ready themselves. This included making mines:
‘We filled the petrol tins with artillery gunpowder, placed a motor-car plug in the middle and closed the tin. We continued this highly dangerous work for three days, in a laboratory full of gunpowder and dynamite, closing the lids of petrol tins filled with explosives with the aid of a red-hot soldering iron! We made a total of forty mines, which the Chinese buried in the roads leading to Urga, artificially freezing the ground above the mines.’
After a three day pause in which at least two thousand of the Chinese deserted, Ungern-Sternberg led a final attack on the city. ‘Immediately the Chinese opened unsystematic and mad shooting,’ recalled Alioshin. ‘Machine guns began their dreadful clattering. The temptation was too great and, contrary to orders, we dashed forward into battle. The baron was carried away by the mad impulse also, as we saw him galloping on his white horse in front of our lines, directing us towards the enemy’s barbed wire.’ Hand to hand fighting quickly followed with the Russian cavalry attacking the Chinese from the rear. Grenades blew open the gates of the barracks and fires lit by Mongolians in the city threw a red glow over the city. The Russians and Mongols charged into the barracks and slaughter swept over the city. Again Alioshin gives a frightening vision of the barbaric chaos:
‘Mad with revenge and hatred, the conquerors began plundering the city. Drunken horsemen galloped along the streets shooting and killing at their fancy, breaking into houses, dragging property outside into the dirty streets, dressing themselves in rich silks found in the shops.’
Worse was to follow in a three day orgy of violence in which the citizens must have severely wondered if they’d made the right choice by lending their support to the Baron. ‘Mass murders were the order of the day,’ recorded Forbath, ‘and many of them were committed, or at least witnessed by Ungern- Sternberg himself... A baker’s Jewish errand boy was, on Ungern-Sternberg’s instructions, baked alive in his master’s oven... On another occasion Ungern-Sternberg hanged a woman with his own hands because she was alleged to have stolen some silk.’ On the morning of the fourth day, the Baron ordered an end to the bloodshed, rape, and plunder. News reached Peking of the disaster at Urga and the Chinese government paid the warlord Chang three million gold dollars to ride out against the Russian. Instead, the Chinese warlord offered the baron a million of his own money and Ungern-Sternberg directed his next step towards Russia.
Preaching a crusade in which Ungern-Sternberg said it was the duty of every White Russian and every Mongolian to crush the Reds and restore the Tsar, he compelled more warriors to join his horde and advanced northwards along the Urga-Troiskosavsk road with the intention of cutting the Trans- Siberian railway line between Irkutsk and eastern China. On May 27, 1921, on the advice of his soothsayers, Ungern-Sternberg declared himself Emperor of all Russia. In the meanwhile, the Bolsheviks in Moscow were aware of events in Mongolia and on the Russian border a Bolshevik Mongolian Army was waiting for him. Several battles followed in which the haphazard fighting swung back and forth. Realising they could expect no mercy whatsoever, the Bolsheviks fought with tenacity and even more cunning than the Baron. On one occasion, the Baron chose to attack a town at dawn, but the Bolsheviks awoke even earlier and routed his forces.
‘The Whites threw away their heavy ammunition,’ wrote Alisohin, ‘artillerymen cut loose their horses from the guns, the hospital personnel abandoned their wounded, men in charge of our transport left ammunition and food, and all dashed madly into the hills.’



The Baron struck back with determined cavalry attacks, but each time he gained a brief victory, the Bolsheviks were back on to him, bringing up reinforcements, sending in aircraft. The Bolsheviks could see Mongolia as their prize, the second country after their own to turn Communist, and they would not give it up. Even the Baron’s men were becoming weary of the constant struggle and as they looked upon Ungern-Sternberg, now without a jacket and wearing ‘on his naked chest numerous Mongolian talismans and charms hung on a bright yellow cord’, they saw a madman. In the middle of the night some discontented warriors aimed a machine gun at the Baron’s tent and opened fire. Dripping blood but still alive, Ungern- Sternberg stumbled out of the yurt and leapt on his horse. The next‘morning he returned and those warriors who remained believed he was indestructible and rode on behind him, but the army was a shadow of itself and by the time a contingent of Cossacks caught up with it, they could offer little resistance. The Cossacks hacked the Whites to pieces and the Baron slid, wounded, from his saddle.



According to Forbath, Ungern-Sternberg was taken in chains to Urga where the now Bolshevik Mongolian government handed him over to the Soviets. He was then apparently shot, although some rumours said he was allowed to join the Red Army.
Another version has it that the Baron was found by Mongols on the steppe who were reluctant to kill him because of his supernatural powers, but merely tied him up and left him to be devoured by ants.
Whatever the truth, the rule of the man who believed he was Genghis Khan and would create a new barbarian empire was over and Mongolia, a land to play for in the Great Game of Central Asia, was firmly in the hands of Communist Mongols.

Sources:
Hopkirk, P., Setting the East Ablaze, Oxford, 1986.
Alioshin, D., Asian Odyssey, London, 1941. Forbath, L., The New Mongolia, London, 1936.
Haslund, H., Tents in Mongolia, London, 1934.

Cuprum
Message Maniac


From: Барнаул
Messages: 829

 Reds Mongols and Reds in Mongolia / Красные + монголы
Sent: 27-10-2020 19:38
 
Фото телохранителя-великана из охраны Живого Будды мне и другие попадались - нужно будет поискать.
А вот "разгрузки" у монголов странные... Уж не для пулемета ли "Гочкис" в таких магазины носили?

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